dreaminghope | Another "Goth" with a gun

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Another "Goth" with a gun

In light of the shooting at Dawson College on Wednesday, all kinds of issues are being stirred up in the Canadian media: teen violence, gun violence and the gun registry, sub-cultures, alienated youth, and past rampage killings. I tried to read the many news articles about it all from my Saturday "Globe and Mail", but I'm finding it all very overwhelming. I'm hoping that writing it out will help me where reading hasn't been.

There are two main comparisons being made to past rampage killings:

December 6th, 1989: A man walked into L'Ecole Polytechnique, Montreal, and killed 14 female students: Geneviève Bergeron, Hélène Colgan, Nathalie Croteau, Barbara Daigneault, Anne-Marie Edward, Maud Haviernick, Barbara Klucznik Widajewicz, Maryse Laganière, Maryse Leclair, Anne-Marie Lemay, Sonia Pelletier, Michèle Richard, Annie St-Arneault, and Annie Turcotte.

This comparison is made due to physical location and the horror of the citizens of Montreal, facing their second rampage killer. However, the Polytechnique killings were committed by an anti-feminist who specifically targeted female students. I don't think anyone believes anything similar about the Dawson College killer.

April 20th, 1999: Two students entered Columbine High School, Colorado, and killed 12 students and 1 teacher: Rachel Scott, Daniel Rohrbough, Cassie Bernall, Steven Curnow, Corey DePooter, Kelly Fleming, Matthew Kechter, Daniel Mauser, Isaiah Shoels, John Tomlin, Lauren Townsend, Kyle Velasquez, and William David "Dave" Sanders. They also injured 21 others.

The newest rampage killer is said to have admired the Columbine killers. He emulated the things about them that were focused on the media immediately following the Colorado crimes, such as the "trench coat mafia" and the Goth images. Some of the first news reports to come out following the shootings described the shooter as a man in black, with a mohawk. I said to Russ: "Why can't they dress like a preppy when they decide to go kill people?"

In the days immediately following Columbine, the Goth kids and similar sub-cultures of high schools in the US and Canada (and probably elsewhere) found themselves more on the defensive then usual. They, who had probably been the victims of bullying for years, suddenly found themselves suspected of being the next ones to blow. The bullying continued or worsened.

Many of these bullied teens found themselves in a weird situation. They want - need - to condemn the murderers and distance themselves from them, and yet... what bullied kid hasn't fantasized about revenge?

Russ and I, two years out of high school at the time of Columbine, and many of our friends, found ourselves sympathizing with the killers, though we didn't want to. We knew who they'd been before they were murderers; we'd been through the kind of things that made them into monsters.

September 13th, 2006: A man killed 1 student - Anastasia DeSousa – and injured 19 others at Dawson College, Montreal.

In the aftermath, revelations that the killer was a member of VampireFreaks.com has left the Goth community scrambling. The home page of VampireFreaks has two messages about the tragedy. The Officers of Avalon, a Pagan organization, has been preparing information about Vampyre spirituality. Other organizations have press releases circulating.

Many of the counter-culture people seem to be saying to their tormentors, as represented by the mainstream: "You can't reject me; I reject you." There's a lot of angry, disaffected kids growing into adults within these communities. Some find a place to belong. Some use the sub-culture as an excuse to be deliberately bizarre, to shock "the mundanes". Some stay angry. Eight years after he finished high school, Anastasia's murderer was still expressing anger at the "jocks" and "preps".

Knowing from experience what teens sometimes go through, I feel undesired compassion for the killers. This competes with my disgust at what they've done and my empathy for the families who have lost loved ones. Is it possible to feel bad for the criminals without being disrespectful to their victims?

We have to find a way to do exactly that, I think, because if we keep making the killers into monsters, unworthy of our compassion or understanding on any level, we will continue to seek ways to blame their crimes on their internal flaws or on a variety of external factors (pick your favourite: violent movies, video games, Marilyn Manson, the Internet, lax gun laws) that have nothing to do with what made these kids so angry to begin with. And if we act as though these kids are natural monsters, then it is too easy to label kids in the same sub-cultures, with the same taste in music or fashion, as potential monsters too, and maybe think that we have to target them to fix the problem.

At the same time, I don't want to give the individual killers more fame for their crimes. Though I feel bad about what they went through prior to picking up the gun, their choice is still their responsibility. That's why I haven't named any of the gunmen in this post.

I could get Wednesday's killer's name from dozens of articles in Saturday's paper, but I had to do a web search to find his victim's. It was probably in all the articles on Wednesday and Thursday, but was already gone by Saturday. I had to do a specific search for the victims to get the Polytechnique names; a general search for information about that crime gave me information about the killer and his motive, but not anything about who he killed. Columbine was a little quicker, for there are memorial sites for a lot of the victims.

I was only ten when Polytechnique happened, so I don't think I knew anything about it at the time. Dawson College hasn't hit me very hard on its own: maybe because the victim was a little older, maybe because only one person died. But it is taking me back to the day of Columbine, when I cried during hours of coverage: news footage of the kids running out of the school, the parents and students sobbing on screen, and the news reports that followed, analyzing the killers. And that's when my anger started, as the killers were called "Goths" and everyone talked about their violent video games, and reports started coming in about new school dress codes, increased problems with bullying, copy-cat killers, suspensions over behaviour that would have been considered innocent the month before. And little being done to cure the problem.

Will this time be any different? Some of the analysis articles are talking about the bullying, the isolation, the anger, the disaffection. Others are still talking about gun laws (not that greater gun control isn’t a good idea, in my opinion), video games, etc.

I wish I had a conclusion to draw from all of this. Tonight I'm going to post this, hope that the links help clear up misconceptions, and then I'm going to pray for the families of the victims and for the lonely kids who aren't sure that they will ever belong anywhere.

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Russ and I, two years out of high school at the time of Columbine, and many of our friends, found ourselves sympathizing with the killers, though we didn't want to. We knew who they'd been before they were murderers; we'd been through the kind of things that made them into monsters.

My worst experiences were more than half my lifetime ago, but they have shaped who I am so they probably affect me daily in ways I don't realize. It caused me to be curious about homeschooling, and to read up on the original purpose of schools: to teach people to be widgets, so they can be fit into the industrial system (rough paraphrase, according to J.T. Gatto).

Do you think that there is a way to avoid the kind of emotional scarring that goes on as a part of the youth culture of our institutionalized school system? There have been programs like 'The Empathy Project' where a baby is brought into class weekly to teach the kids about empathy, and any number of anti-bullying initiatives. It seems like these programs are small, weak responses to a huge root-causes problem: poverty, families with insufficient support, hyper-competitive culture, the ingrained idea that bullying is an acceptable way for adults to get what they want, plus probably lots of other causes I can't think of right now.

Why do I always end up deciding that a large part of our industrial way of life is wrong, and that we must scrap it!? It's not really a very helpful conclusion.

Do you think that there is a way to avoid the kind of emotional scarring that goes on as a part of the youth culture of our institutionalized school system?

I don't know. I find the whole thing so frustrating.

As inadequate as those anti-bullying projects are, I think they are better then the response to Columbine was for most schools, which can be summarised as blaming absolutely everyone and everything except what was happening inside that school.

In the meantime, we need to work on whatever root causes we can tackle. Poverty, over-crowded schools, over-worked teachers... these seem to be good places to start.

Why do I always end up deciding that a large part of our industrial way of life is wrong, and that we must scrap it!? It's not really a very helpful conclusion.

I know. The problem is, that is at least a part of it, so as unhelpful as it is, it is something we need to know. I guess the best we can do is help where we can, and refuse to participate when we can.

>Do you think that there is a way to avoid the kind of emotional scarring that goes on as a part of the youth culture of our institutionalized school system?<

I don't think it can be totally eliminated but things can be done. From my vantage point, the schools need to first look at bullying as a serious problem rather than the way things are and will always be.

The worst time of my life was junior high school. I can't remember how many times I got called into the principal's office for fighting. The fact that I never started a fight in my life never seemed to register with the administration. Surprisingly, neither did the fact that in so many of these so-called 'fights,' the odds were usually three against one. It should have been obvious that I did not have a Jackie Chan complex considering every 'fight' where I was ganged up against, I got my ass kicked.

I've long since forgiven my fellow classmates; even those that were two cowardly to attack me one-on-one. I've never forgiven the incompetent administration who, rather than trying to stop the bullies, would punish me simply for trying to defend myself.

I've never forgiven the incompetent administration who, rather than trying to stop the bullies, would punish me simply for trying to defend myself.

I hear you there. Administrators often punish the victim or just scold the bullies: "He says you are picking on him. That hurts his feelings. Stop doing that." Like that would ever work.

What an incredible powerful and insightful observation.

I may comment more later on (and blowing off work to comment in detail seems incredibly tempting ;-) but here's just some initial thoughts.

***They want - need - to condemn the murderers and distance themselves from them, and yet... what bullied kid hasn't fantasized about revenge?***

Thanks for bringing this up. When the news about Columbine first broke, I found myself inwardly cheering for the killers despite myself.

Then more details were released that changed my mind. The Columbine killers didn't go after the ones that tormented them and those responsible for making their life miserable. No, instead they went on a rampage killing everyone indiscrimately (sp?) Had the bomb actually blown up the cafeteria as they planned, the massacre would have been far worse.

And who would have been killed? Bullies to be sure but also slews of innocent bystanders some of whom may have sympathized with the plight of the bullied would-be Columbine killers.

I remember thinking that the Columbine killers did everything 'all wrong.' As if killing anyone, no matter what the justification, could be considered 'right.'

When this thing first broke, I had dark fantasies of time traveling back to junior high and vicariously getting back at everyone who had made my life a living hell.

Instead, I learn that those responsible for the killing are a couple of twisted Nazi sympathisers who ended up being far worse than anyone who may have bullied them.

Now while I think everyone has had thoughts of violent revenge, the trick is not to act on these thoughts.

The Columbine killers in a sense became everyting that I, at first, thought they were fighting against. These two bullies kids became probably the biggest bullies school bullies in modern history.

***In the days immediately following Columbine, the Goth kids and similar sub-cultures of high schools in the US and Canada (and probably elsewhere) found themselves more on the defensive then usual.***

Another excellent example of how the extremists get an unfair share of the news and how the public automatically lumps anyone with even slightly similar traits along with the extremists.

The so-called 'goth culture' gets lumped in with the Columbine killers. Similar things have occured throughout history whether it's the Salem witch trials, the incarceration of innocent Japanese Americans during WWII or the post-9/11 backlash.

I remember shortly after 9/11, a Middle Eastern restaraunt called Mona's was bombed. It was obviously a hate crime. It didn't matter that the owners of the restaurant weren't even Muslims. It didn't matter that even if they were, 99.99% of Muslims are peace loving people and have about as much in common with the 9/11 extremists as you or I do.

Those that perpetrated this crime became, in my opinion, every bit as bad as the terrorists. Another example how unchecked hate merely leads to more of the same.

***They, who had probably been the victims of bullying for years, suddenly found themselves suspected of being the next ones to blow. The bullying continued or worsened.***

I actually almost wish I was in junior high when Columbine happened. While I would never have even touched a gun, I could have easily pretened that I would. I have these fantasies of staring at my childhood tormenters with a faux-psychotic look in my eyes and whispering 'Remember Columbine.'

So while I'd never go through with it, just making the bullies THINK I would, may have made my life a lot easier.

Of course the school administration would probably try to expell me or something, as I stated in my previous response, that was pretty much par for the course for them. As long as I refused to conform, I felt like Public Enemy #1 in the administration's eyes even though I never harmed anyone.

Of course if they simply THOUGHT that their own lives were in danger, maybe that's all that would be needed to actually make them give a damn.

The Columbine killers didn't go after the ones that tormented them and those responsible for making their life miserable.

Very true. Any honest look at those killers has to include the fact that they were arrogant, cruel, indiscriminate. They weren't heroic.

The so-called 'goth culture' gets lumped in with the Columbine killers.

And I've read since that the killers didn't consider themselves "goths" either. They probably had the same contempt towards that group as they did towards everyone else in their school.

Those that perpetrated this crime became, in my opinion, every bit as bad as the terrorists. Another example how unchecked hate merely leads to more of the same.

I remember hearing similar stories to the restaurant's in the days after the original terrorist attack. Individuals getting beaten up, threats, all because they happened to share race or religion with the terrorists. And, not to forget, that originally they thought a Muslim terrorist was responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing - the one a white American was responsible for. I can't imagine what would have happened if that happened again now.

I have these fantasies of staring at my childhood tormenters with a faux-psychotic look in my eyes and whispering 'Remember Columbine.'

I certainly understand the urge. And lots of kids did exactly that, and got suspended, at the least, for the attempt. Everyone was so scared in the days and weeks after Columbine that no one knew what to take seriously, so they took everything seriously. Especially after the copycats started: attempts and a couple more deaths.

Of course if they simply THOUGHT that their own lives were in danger, maybe that's all that would be needed to actually make them give a damn.

I wonder if anything changed in schools that had threats. I wonder if anything good came out of the Columbine tragedy for anyone. If even a few schools did something to really help bullied and isolated kids...

What an incredible powerful and insightful observation.

Thank you. I really enjoy your comments and insights on my posts.

It's a bit too early in the morning for any intelligent remarks from my corner, but I have to say that the Token Goth on my campus is one of the happiest kids I've ever met--a big stocky guy with blonde curly hair who always smiles when he sees me.

Screw stereotypes.

Screw stereotypes.

Amen!

Especially since it appears that the Columbine killers didn't self-identify as Goths. Being antisocial and wearing black =/= goth, though the media doesn't like to make that kind of subtle distinction.

This all reminds me very much of the recent anniversary of 9/11. In that...you have something horrific that's happened, but you have people doing and blaming all the wrong things/people/events for the horrific thing. And half the reasoning world is sitting around thinking "Dear god...are you serious?" and they're meaning the people who are trying to attribute reasons to the horrific events, because their leaders are doing the shittiest job they've ever seen.

But uhh...I've been told to stfu about that certain anniversary by people who don't read this forum...so uhh..ignore everything I said.

well maybe those ppl need to stfu themselves.

you are allowed your opinion honey.

~hugs~

I am curious as to why you felt the need to disclaim your opinion on the grounds that someone who is not here told you not to talk about something somewhere else.

Because I don't know how many ignorant, Bush supporting, over emotional, American drama queens read your LiveJournal. And yes, one must have all of the attributes to qualify.

Interesting reasoning.

The same things seem to happen around all nationally or internationally traumatic events. It is hard to look at the real reasons horrific things sometimes happen.

They want - need - to condemn the murderers and distance themselves from them, and yet... what bullied kid hasn't fantasized about revenge?

as a survivior of school and neighbourhood bullying (mostly the same kids), more than 20 years later I still feel the consequences in my daily emotional life, and i still cringe every time i pass by/hear a commercial for/a review of the successful restaurant chain founded by one of my worst tormentors. don't get me wrong, intellectually i'm DELIGHTED that he's made something of himself rather than doing time somewhere (there was some doubt about that in grade 8/9-ish when he managed to get himself tossed out of just about every high school in the district). but, damnit, well, where's MY success? (stupid self-esteem problems). anyway, i want to write tons more but if i do that now i'll be late for school. thanks for writing this. *HUGS*

...more than 20 years later I still feel the consequences in my daily emotional life...

And that's what I think a lot of people who would dismiss bullying as a minor issue forget: the effects of bullying doesn't just stop at graduation.

I was lucky enough to move away from my tormentors. It must be hard to be reminded of that part of your life. You are strong! ~Hugs~

"Is it possible to feel bad for the criminals without being disrespectful to their victims?"
I think it's absolutely possible, and completely understandable. Bullying kids are a disgrace to society, and a testament, I believe, to their upbringing. I agree with some of the ideas that our culture (video games, movies, the internet) contributes to violence and hatred in general. But I think the answer lies in the family itself. A child who is raised to believe in themselves, and to be tolerant of others, does not bully, and is not overly affected by being bullied. I have always advocated for school uniforms, but kids would find other things to ridicule besides clothing. Still, I think it's a good idea. It might force kids to express themselves with their minds, instead of their attire. My nephew, who is the nicest kid you could know, respectful and loving all through his teenage years, dresses quite 'goth'. He gets a lot of flack for it from the other students, as well as from the teachers. He was never bullied; never angry. Just a kid who likes the look. This world is very hard to take sometimes.

I agree with some of the ideas that our culture (video games, movies, the internet) contributes to violence and hatred in general.

I think it might be a cycle where our demand for stimulation and excitement means that more violent entertainment is produced, therefore there's more demand for more and more excitement. I think the fact that people want that sort of entertainment is proof that our society is ill in some way.

I don't think the media can be blamed entirely - that's too easy - but nor can we ignore it altogether as a factor.

This world is very hard to take sometimes.

Definitely.

(You might wanna check the html on your links up there. LiveJournal URLs are attached to the front of them, making them unclickable.)

Like someone else said, this reminds me of 9/11. When 9/11 happened I was a student at university in Illinois that has a very large international student population. Most of these students were from India or Asian countries. I actually don't think I ever met someone from the Middle East at the university. But since "they all look the same" there was a lot of worry that some ignorant fool would commit acts of violence on members of the international student population. There was a rumor for a little bit that a female student from Egypt was attacked. It was thankfully false, and as far as I know there was no violence against any of the international students. I'm glad that my university stood against stereotypes and didn't contribute to Muslim hate and racist ignorance. Even recently I've heard good news of acceptance in regards to members of the LGBT community at my alma mater. It honestly makes me want to join the Alumni Association and get more involved there.

Thanks for letting me know about the link problem - I've fixed them.

That's great to hear about your university.

Now my head is spinning with thoughts about racism and how it may be different and the same from the sort of discrimination faced by kids who choose to be different (e.g., goths), but I won't be able to sort that out in one comment. Thanks for getting me thinking again!

Thank you for your reflections on this matter. Was both lucky and unlucky in today's school system. was unlucky early on by being labeled a misfit very early around grade four. Flipped schools in grade seven and got out of my nieghbourhood district early on. High school was out of my usual district too but patterns had been already set in social and learning behaviours. When the worst of my childhood bullies was enrolled in the secondary school I was attending hings got bad again, luckily the administration was keeping a eye on him.

Things somewhat turned around when I got accepted into an alternative learning program. This is where I consider myself lucky I graduated highschool something everyone be allowed to do. I know a few that haven't had that opportunity and they are some of the brightest people I know. I am not saying that killing the people that bullied you is the right answer. Bullying is a major problem and I agree it is something that needs to be fixed in society through out the schools nieghbourhoods and homes.

Things somewhat turned around when I got accepted into an alternative learning program.

I wish our education system was set up to allow all kids to get into the kind of learning program they need. If all kids could be taught the way they need to be, in a supportive, or at least safe, environment, the next generation would be a lot better off.

As with many others, I, too, was bullied at school as a child, and suffered psychological trauma as a result. This was gr. 6 - 8. Didn't help that my parents divorced at the same time and my whole world kinda fell apart from the outside in.

By gr. 10 I found a group of fellow outcasts and we banded together to care for each other in a world where we didn't fit in in the "usual" ways. We called ourselves "The Freak Show".

I survived by banding together with other survivors of the adolescent "clique stupidity". We grew strong together, and found a positive means to vent against our peers.

We found the silver lining. We found the positive in the negative.

I have no sympathy for the killers.

Our paths are our own. We choose them of our own free will.

But in the end...one thing is clear. Let us not be sheep. Let us not run blindly with the herd. Remember that allowing the bullying by not doing anything is just as guilty as those who bully.

Apathy is not a defense.

We found the silver lining. We found the positive in the negative.

I have no sympathy for the killers.

As far as I know, there's never been a female rampage killer, so I'm not sure what that means about our abilities to imagine what it would have taken for one of us to be on the other side of a gun. However, I can imagine a few of my male friends, had they made the wrong friend instead of falling in with a group like your "Freak Show", acting in violence.

Yes, we make our choices. The killers are still wrong. But, "there but for the grace of God go I" or someone I love.

Apathy is not a defense.

It definitely isn't. But, then again, how much responsibility can you put on a middle school kid to stand up to the bullies? If we could have all stood up together, we could have stopped it all, but what scared child knows that? When one child is bullied, those around may turn away in fear and embarrassement. It shouldn't have to be up to them: that's why we have adults. And the adults are rarely apathetic. They are often ignorant; ignorant of what is really going on, what effects it will have, and what should be done about it.

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Another "Goth" with a gun

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